Suggestion: More intelligent scouts or spies? (was:Let the User set working direction for Scouts)

(I have reassigned this to Widelands, as I couldn't really see how it affected the website.)

I'm a bit uncertain about your suggestion, since it would give much more direct control of scouts compared to other workers. I would also assume that they are drawn to undiscovered (fog of war) areas when they are out and about, but I don't know.

I do understand you frustration, as the scouts can be annoying by walking out into the empty wilderness for the nth time, rather than into enemy territory.

Indeed not ... :) Sorry about the wrong place...
You're right, it does give more control - and also it is almost a micro-managing feature, which we really would not want. So, yes - I was never sure, if others would approve.
I have filed that all the same, because this seems to be the real problem with the scouts - and I found no better way then. (maybe now?)
For me there is almost one use for scouts only - and that is at the very beginning of the game.
There are other rare occasion, related to spying and warfare, but I exclude them for now.
Where are mountains, water, stones, trees?
Are there mountain passes which I can try to block? (on smaller maps)
Which direction should I expand my realm first?
And it's exactly this situation, where they perform poorly and performance is (time) critical.
I think there must be some routine in place that draws the scouts towards unknow territory; at least they never explore my own realm.
But it seems that the status quo is not updated by the explorations they have already done.
So they explore regions that were unknown at the beginning over and over again, and others remain blackened. (Just my observation, someone else may be able to verify this from the code)
Better than what I had in mind first, would be to send the scouts systematically to unknown territory within their reach, and have "unknown territtory" redifined every time before they set out.
That would be more in line with the widelandish philosophy, I think.

I would rather make the scouts smarter: e.g. not let them run around randomly, but e.g. along the normal vector pointing from your HQ (or the principal coponents of your empire) to the scout hut....

Regarding going along the normal vector or one direction: How would this work on strange maps like Atoll (which is a circle) and "that-map-which-is-in-essence-a-spiral-but-I-don't-remember-the-name"? Would the scouts be able to go in what a direction would be back towards your HQ?

I have thought bit about it, and have a suggestion, though I'm not sure how feasible it is as it is a bit complicated. Basically the scout will have certain priorities to decide where to scout next. My initial priorities would be dark area and enemy territory should be scouted first. So something like this:

1. Check for any dark areas which has not been scouted at all. If found, check if any of them is in enemy territory*. If any dark areas within enemy territory (and within reach of course) is found go there. If there is more than one enemy area (either large or multiple enemies, pick one at random) Else, go to any dark area.
2. If no dark areas are found, check for gray areas which have been scouted earlier but is no longer visible. Pick one at random (like today I guess).
3. If all areas within reach are visible, the scout remains at home.

*I am not sure if this is possible for the scout. It would also be vital that this check is performed based on the players knowlegde, as the scout should not go into an area because there is a territory there. (Similar to bug 585107, I guess)

Sounds pretty perfect to me.

As for the *note:

>as the scout should not go into an area because there is a territory there.
I don't really understand that part.
Is there not always a territory where there is an area?

But apart from that:
If I was a lumberjack and found no more trees in known territory, would I not
try to go to unknown as far as my range allows?
And if he does, it is perfectly okay that the user knows about it IMO.
In this sense, lumberjack act a bit as a "low range mini-scout" - but
why not?

Soldiers, when send to an assault, may also pass unknown terrain if
they cannot go there in any other way, and so lift the blackness.

To restate my question in the first paragraph in comment #4, because it hardly make any sense: If the scout's task is to go in the opposite direction of the HQ, what happens when the map is designed so that the remaining unknown area is between the scout's hut and HQ?

HQ ------ unknown -----scout (nothing undiscovered here)
  \--my conquered area---/

>Is there not always a territory where there is an area?
I was thinking about a territory as an area owned by a player. The point would be that the scout should not know more than the player does. Say there are two undiscovered areas, and one of them hides the border of an enemy player. The scout should not prefer this area because of the hidden enemy, since the player has not seen it yet. However, if the player has noticed the edge of an enemy territory this should be scouted before completely unknown darkness.

The scout should not go into the darkness and find enemy territory because he magically knew it was there. With the two dark areas described above and no information, there should be an equal chance to select either. So 50% of the time he will discover the enemy, 50% of the time he would walk through some empty wilderness.

Ah .. I see, "territory" is "land owned".
Now it makes sense.

We should drop the idea of any "vector" altogehter, I think
Yes, I understand about the scout how he should not know more that the player does.
I am trying a diffent approach:

Depending on the situation, a player would want a scout to behave differently.

+ The player may want him to update discovered enemy land frequently,
       even though there may be some totally unexplored land close.
       A typical situation for this would be when you're planning an attack on
       that enemy and need information on the military infrastructure beyond you line of sight.
       or want to attack a building there.

+ He may want to explore black areas and ignore all grey (no update)
       even if it is enemy land.
       This would be true when you are urgently looking for a map resource
       and do not fear the other realm (because it playes on your side, is too weak
       to attack, or whatever), or, if you must find a good defense line.

I think there are too many "ifs" and "whens" here.
We may have packed too much desired functionality into the scout.

Perhaps we should have a "scout" (explores black areas, never re-enters grey ones and
stayes at home when no black areas remain within reach) and

a "spy" (goes only into enemy territory that must have been discovered (Borderline)
by other means first (scout or realm expansion). He will go on updating the grey
territory endlessly if not stopped. A spy could be an upgraded scout with with a
certain amount of experience.

I still like that last idea (#7) about scouts and spies, even after some more thinking (which is not always the case with my suggestions :) )
We might even add a ranking system (apprentice spy -> grandmaster spy) according to experience
and add the possibility of a spy being caught, with the chances getting less with increasing rank.
A caught spy could then simply be lost, or even brainwashed to work for the enemy who caught him, with
full experience points.
Some of it should probably only work for single player, or as a feature that can be enabled/disabled at the
beginning of a game.

My experience (Build-16) is that scouts all head west, time after time. That's useless. I'd be happy with almost anything else. Currently, the only way to scout easterly is to send out hunters -- sometimes they chase game.

I have no problem with random walk scouts; I don't care if they've explored a spot or not, let them cross it again. A scout may well have explored an enemy Sentry when it was empty; if he walks there again, I may be ready to attack. No, I don't want to tell them where to go... not unless I can command my soldiers to go somewhere useful. No sophisticated algorithm is required. If you want to scout in a certain direction, build the Scout's House in that direction. Over time, the scouted area *should* assume the form of a rough circle.

Scouts *should* prefer never-explored land to fogged; and fogged to completely visible; and avoid player's own roads but use enemy roads freely to gain range. With that, and an honest pseudo-random walk, it's done.

Intelligence is expensive.

Scouts heading west mentioned in the comment above was reported as a separate issue, bug 1023264.